"I have a question/I am bothered, can anyone help" by SumTingWong

Hello to everyone:

First or all I want to wish everyone a good day, and I hope that none of you take any offence to my question.

I must admit that I feel uneasy with something I saw and I was wondering "why"? Why is a very basic, but important question.

Here is my dilemma... I think I have found evil on our beautiful Earth, I don't know if evil is the word, but I cannot translate the word "DUKKHA" - Christian missionaries. Why do they feel it is necessary to corrupt others, to steal their identity? To take away what is sacred to other cultures. Why are they determined in forcing their beliefs on other innocent people? Haven't they ever heard of tolerance? It is not their place to corrupt the innocent people of the world with their beliefs, because that is all they are; their beliefs, nothing is necessary true. It is the individual's job to find their truth in life, not for others to force a false truth upon them. They steal people's identity and culture and prey off the weak, poor, and hurt.

Now with these semi-harsh statements I ask all of you on VT to comment (by e-mail). Please, tell me what you think.

Now another "why?" Why did I put these feelings on VT? Well two reasons, I just had to get it out of me and VT is no better place. True world travelers are the most understanding and sensitive to other cultures. I feel that all of you here on VT know the beauty of which every culture contains.

So... This issue is very much bothering me... so I would urge any of you to please drop me an e-mail with some thoughts!!

Nobody take offence to this please! I am speaking of a particular experience I have had while trekking in the north of Chiang Mai province, Thailand, where I heard from the villagers that missionaries had withheld basic necessitates unless the people converted.

Thanks!!!

Pura vida,

-Mateo

My personal responce:
With regards to missionaries, I
don't doubt that they do some good work and truely desire to help people -
especially medical missionaries- as they do have a purpose. What I totally
disagree with is the entire concept of one) thinking that one's own beliefs are
absolute and supreme and two) trying to convert people too them. I think that
missionaries in general have a complete disregard for the culture in which they
are penetrating, do not respect the beliefs of others, try and force their own
beliefes on others out of ideas that they call "love" and the only form of
"love". The entire mindset is besed off of ethnocentrism - the idea that one's
own way is above the ways or others. What is lacking is a real honest sense of
cultural relativism - that is, that all cultures and beliefs must be seen as
equal, and a holistic way of viewing the world and all the cultures and beliefs
that exist.

From Yumiyun :

Well, I'm not sure if I can exactly answer your "why?" but here is my perspective on Christian missionaries.
Basically, I dispise the idea of "converting" others by imposing one's religious beliefs. I don't think missionaries are going around converting others out of their evilness. I must give those devoted Christians some sort of sympathy that they have been made to believe in such manner that they are compelled to convert others. Christianity, as I came to know, is not to question the word of God. So in a way, missionaries themselves are brainwashed.
I must ask "why?" as well. Why is that so many people have been converted to Christianity, especially in so-called Third World countries? Do they give in to the material wealth those Christians bring with them? Or do they truly see that this is the way to God?

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From Ginaravens :

It is an introspective insecurity to feel the need to impose a belief upon others as being "right" or "true". The person wants to be superior but does not feel it & here the missionary zeal of imposition on others is an artificial way of feeding that insecurity, another mind-bending tool of christianity.
If only they could reason that the need to convert others is less a question of faith & more one of a lack of faith they might begin to question the whole absurdity of "having to do god's work". It is a means by which they assume the divinity & ability to judge from their theistic symbol

Does anyone think it bizarre that followers of a god who advocates free will should not respect free will in others?

From my point of view Mel I work with people who have had, through religious instruction, a standard of behaviour imposed upon them through guilt that creates great difficulties & disturbances in how they live their lives. The number of Catholic women with shiftless & badly behaved catholic husbands who make their lives a misery is astonishing! They come to me asking to help them cope with their husband's bad behaviour, though the way I see it, if they really wanted to endure it they would see a priest, they come to me because they want permission to not be subservient & to be free of the abuse.
The church imposes guilt and a morality that is not concurrent with the needs of conscience!

Marc, the way I see it, where religion touches the lives of others it is all politics. I have nothing but respect for any persons open minded enough to be flexible in their aims where they see a greater need than their original purpose.

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From vivelafrance :

It is a form of Imperialism, at its worst. The book "The Mosquito Coast" by Paul Theroux deals with this issue excellently.

I think people are more concerned with the way some of these organisations try to impose their values on a place, rather than with WHAT they are trying to impose. Therefore, you will find that believers and non-believers, alike, will oppose some of the methods used.

Religion and Politics SHOULD be separable, but governments and religious sects often mix the two and use them as excuses/ justification for attacks, imperialism, and so on.

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From Lochlainn :

A country can't be christian Edwina. Only its inhabitants. And I'm not aware of any country in which all its inhabitants are christian. Faith is not an issue that can be decided democratically - regardless of how much a majority one version might be within a political boundary, it does not devalue others' opinions on the matter one iota. Loose terminology like that leads to misunderstandings and vagueness which organised missionaries - of whatever professed faith - tend to utilise to their benefit.
I agree with your assessment Mateo of the spurious methods by which some missionaries attempt to force their views on others. I come from a country that took pride in producing missionaries of the catholic faith for years, and while many of these people did some great work in alleviating poverty and sickness across the globe, there were precious few of them did so except with the "pay off" that their beneficiaries adopt the catholic faith. The notable exceptions to this - Irish missionaries in Central America who evolved into quite a radical Marxist force - have been "blacklisted" by their own church and their achievements are rarely reported back here at all.

"Kicking undesirables out of the country" presumes a lot of things about a country that just are not true in many cases - centralised government with the will to pursue such an expensive policy, a population that is economically and socially secure enough not to at least avail in part of what missionaries often bring, a social policy shared by all concerned that automatically defines missionaries as undesirable in the first place etc etc. The truth is that many countries and societies that exist within and on the verges of the so-called "third world" are not in a position to do so, however many individuals living there resent this overbearing intrusion on their lives. The organisations that send missionaries into these areas have done their homework beforehand and are well aware that this is the case when calculating their modus operandi. In a more secure, viable and settled country such as Britain a very different approach is used, and not the one that I assume Mateo referred to.

In a way I feel almost sorry for certain Irish missionaries who, especially in Central America, have been forced in the past by their own conscience to virtually abandon their original "catholic christian" principles and evolve into Marxist radicals in order to hilghlight and help the plight of the people they originally went to help. In another way I'm respectful of them for carrying "christian" principles through to their logical conclusion and in the process divesting themselves of dogma. liturgy and a blind faith in the wisdom of their ex-mentors who sent them there in the first place, who are only too willing to drop them like a hot potato when they actually get involved in local politics, an inevitable outcome of tackling social injustice. One guy I know, who is back in Ireland, has been effectively "excommunicated" by his church and also barred from going back to Guatemala, where he worked for many years. Intertestingly his Guatemalan debarrment seems to be supported (and most likely originated) by the USA, from which he finds he is now also barred from travelling.

For those of us who live in the real world these issues are far more pertinent than the vague ideological implications of being a missionary, which after all, no matter what way you cut it, is the desire to change others to your way of thinking - be it by force or by example. This is just silly intrusion and with sinister overtones I would add. When the desire is to alleviate others' poverty and all that it entails then it is politics we are discussing and not religion - and those who get involved, for whatever original motivation, should be ultimately judged in a political context. Depending on your own politics, this carries its own moral criteria, and to me the vast majority of so-called "missionaries" are ethically on dodgy ground! The ones who own up to this and pursue their political agenda of attempting to right political and social wrongs without the obfuscation of overt religious intent deserve our respect, at least for being honest.

Every aspect of religion - from the patriarchal power broking of its organisers right through to each individual's personal beliefs - is political and can never be truly separate from politics. It is equally naive to assume that they can be separated as to bemoan that the two are interlinked. As long as social mores are influenced by religious thinking (be it governed by them or in reaction to them) then it is wiser and more realistic to judge all religious activity in a political context than vice versa.

I gaze up on a starey knight
And ask myself "Gee Whiz -
Is there a dog behind all this
Or is this all there is?"

"And has he angles to his left
And stains unto his right
And are his wheys listerious
And is he all wise write?"

"And does he give us all three wills
By which we chews to go
Or are our fetes all prior drained
The end we never, no?"

"And what about his barely gates
Are they for reel or knot
And do the angles all wire wings
And ploy the harp a lot?"

"Or maybe there's no dog at all
As fizzy cysts are saying
And we're just lumps of cellar dust,
Coz Mick alley decaying?"

"Did Einstone maybe hit the mail
Upon its crusty head
And is it just that we expound
Until at last all's dread?"

"So if you're there dog give a sign
To this pure hummin' Marc!"
I weight but all I think I hear
Is a feint and distant - "Bark!"

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From duanestorey :

My family used to be pretty religious, and I went to a church group once a week for around four years in my youth. When I got old enough to make up my own mind, I decided to leave, mostly because of the whole idea of missionaries.. The church was always trying to raise money to send missionaries to third world countries to convert the people there.. I had (and still have) a real hard time accepting that.. Considering there are hundreds of mutually exclusive religions, why does each one insist they are right? Chances are only one is right (if any), and the others are all wrong..

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From Ewdinadolly :

And the same can be said for other cultural people moving into Christian countries and trying to impose their values onto us......and so be it.

STW,I would never let anyone of any faith force their opinions on me,I have a mind of my own.If these people are so bad?,why not kick them out of the country? :)

STW,I have to plead my ignorance here,sorry,it won't help you with your plight though.
I didn't think that there were such things as missionaries these days?,the idea of missionaries seemsso antiquated to me?,so 18th/19th century.I know that many countries are poor material wise,but we all know that the peoples of these places do have brains if not wealth,so these people really have no right foisting their religeons on anyone else.To be honest,I am a believer myself,not really christian beliefs I might add,but I think that it's really disgusting that people go around trying to force others into their religeons,I suppose the nearest we get to that is Jehovahs witnesses,but I'll stand there and argue my point with them for hours hehehe :)

Flor de Maria,medical and education are a good thing to help people with,I just find the idea of people in this day and age going to another part of the world and trying to force them into another religeon is very wrong,it's as bad as the Spanish inquisition,whitch hunting and being a Nazi. (see below for reference)

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From mel bee :

Hi! It was interesting to find your comment. No I didn't take offence I am interested to see what you are thinking. Reading through the replies and other similar comments on other forum comments, it seems to me that most VT members are do not believe in any form of god and are against anything religious. I wonder whether travel and wide experience really does make people more critical and questioning about things that people accepted in earlier times. I agree that a lot of harm has been done in the name of religion (not just christian/catholic religion but islam and other religions) over the centuries and religious beliefs are the cause of most of the world conflicts today. If your example is true, then these people are not real missionaries as these methods do not achieve the goal of missionaries and I am disappointed that such people ruin the reputation and good name of real missionaries who go to a society and integrate and help, not control and destroy. Whether religion really destroys the native culture is hard to say, I think a lot of people who come in contact with missionaries are converted nowadays because they come from societies with different values to ours. I think that 21st century western society is too driven by material wealth and gain or only caring about yourself.
(sorry I couldn't understand the replies in Spanish)

From besbel :

Well, it seems a lot of questions in just one, Mateo: religious, historical, sociological, cultural subjects are raised here, and no reply will fully answer any of them. What I really don't think that we can judge the work of all Christian missionaries (or the ones from other religions) for the tyranic way they behave in one specific location on one specific country. Bad sheeps are in any field, anywhere.

"the idea of forcing ones beliefs upon another people is what all missionaries do."
Sorry Mateo, but "forcing" is not the word for missionaries' labour. God is love, and all Christians are due to spread the word, not obligue others to follow their instruction like puppets. If they accept it, that's OK, and if they don't, that's also OK.
It's sad, however, to see that some missionaries have the heritage of the S. XVI-XVII forcible-like ways to endoctrine, when the Index and the Inquisition punished with dead to all non Catholics. I agree with you that the ways used for the missionaries in Chiang Mai are anti Christian and give a bad image of missionaries.
When you come to Peru, maybe you could watch in situ the work of missionaries in our central jungle and countryside, which is also a unique experience.

Labour of missinaries is not only religious. Sometimes they have more presence than State itself in one region, and can be helpfhu with medical care and education.
And again: trying to spread the word of love does not mean that there is an OBLIGATION to convert. It just does not fit in a current world of free believing and free speech, whichever coercitive method is hasty and should be punished.
Now this discussion has made me want to go to the missions in my country... maybe I'll build a page about it :-)
Regards,
Flor de Maria

Yes Eddie, I agree with you. Extremism and impositions and any use of force bring at a certain time more trouble than benefit. That's why *modern* missionaries are not like that anymore. And if they are, they are against the foundations of the religion: love. God cares about anyone, believers and non-believers.
What makes me really sad is that their wrong attitude give a poor image of Christian work, so many people will tend to think that we are just a bunch of non-smart, "brainwashed" community. (see above for referece)
Mateo: estoy de acuerdo contigo, lo que se ha hecho en tu pa?s no debe hacerse en ninguna parte. La religi?n no debe ser confundida con fanatismo ni con imposici?n. Solo que me da pena leer en el foro la pobre imagen que tiene la obra cat?lica por el mal ejemplo de algunos misioneros, y que se termina extendiendo a todos nosotros. Soy cat?lica, y avalo las misiones como forma de extender la palabra de Dios (ojo, difusion no imposicion), puedo estar equivocada pero jam?s avalar?a algo que hiciera da?o a alguien.
Espero que puedas estar en Per? el pr?ximo a?o, hay misiones dominicas y jesuitas en algunos parajes de la selva, ser?a bueno que visites una.
Saludos,
Flor de Maria

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Thanks so much all for all the responces!

Yumiyin, I agree with your statement about them being "brainwashed" and thought the same thing myself. I think I can attempt to reply to your why.
Missionaries feed off the poor. Many times missionaries go to nations where there is ongoing war and conflict to get converts because chriastianity appeals to the poor, weak, and destraught hoping for a better life in "heaven" through faith and prayer.

Lochlainn, in fact it was an Irish missionary that was in my area, my village woulden't let him in in fear, and then the area had a huge "cleasing ceremony" to get rid of dukkha (like evilness/mental suffering) as they say here. You also bring up an inteligent point regarding government and religion.

Edwinadolly: like Lochlainn stated, a nation cannot be determined by a faith. People do not move into your country and force, literally force, their beliefs upon you, but that happens only wih the missionaries, especially in the 3rd world; the parts of the world which still hold the most cultural treasure.

Ginaravens and vivelafrance, I feel the same way, thanks for the replies and inteligent insight also!!

Thanks again everyone!

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I don't even know why they are not kicked out of the country. I know countries like Vietnam for example won't let them in, but other 3rd world places just don't have the man power nor will power to do anything.

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I'm just speaking generally, the idea of forcing ones beliefs upon another people is what all missionaries do. I'd love to find a non-religious missionary, but thats not in the definition.

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Lochlainn beautifuly written! I was trying to get at that, you described it perfectally. Thank you!

Y tambien es importante para entender que a causa de estes documentos (que exigen que los católicos separen el " mensaje del dios") problemas comienzan.
Aquí, la meta de los misionarios solamente es para conseguir convertidos, ellos no hacen caso a la cultura aqui y no cuidan a las personas que no quieren convertir y destruir su propia cultura. Fui a unas adelas pobres en el Estado de Shan en Burma/Myanmar que convertieron solamente para obtener COMIDA y RECURSOS PARA LA ESCUELA de los misionarios. Para ser totalmente honesto, ahora ellos usan las páginas de las biblias como papel de tocador (de veras). Algunas personas diría que esto es repugnante, pero yo diría que esa gente se protege y está protegiendo su cultura en el extremo.

Me gustaria ir a Perú y ver la situación (si tendré tiempo, estaré en peru en Agusto del ano 2004). Esperaría que la situación en Perú fuera mejor que la situación aqui en asia. Espero que usted tenga un buen dia! Ciao

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THANKS TO EVERYONE!!!!!!!!! I REALLY APPRECIATE ALL OF THE RESPONCES ALL OF YOU TOOK YOUR TIME TO WRITE! THANKS FOR SHARING ALL OF YOUR OPINIONS!!! THANKS AGAIN!!